Guess my posts in which I stated that exact same sentiment have gone unread as well.

Don't sweat it PJ, not worth arguing.

i understand what you are saying. but think about this, when you alter the camshaft, the tuning is now incorrect and wont allow the car to idle properly, and the only way to fix it is to get into the computer and tune it. now since your already there why not tune everything????

i completely understand where both of you are coming from too, but i can't afford over 400 dollars for something that clears up with a 100 dollar tune and only happens when it sits for a few months.

like i said, nelson's advice and dez's simple tuning has taken care of everything before, so i'll stick with that until i go all out and build a motor worth spending the money on.

In most cases you don't need a chip in order to get your car to run "ok". You're just not letting run at it's potenital. You can sometimes play around with the IAC bypass screw if you have one, but again, a band-aid fix. If the car sat for 4 months the IAC isn't going to magically fill up with carbon. The more you drive it, chances are the better it will get up to a point. That's because the EEC is continuously updating the adaptive tables. If you had the battery unhooked or it went dead over that time, the KAM was cleared and it has to start the process all over again.

I never understand why people are so against tuning. People are willing to go out and spend $600 on an intake that will gain them 18hp, but tuning a completely stock car can gain an easy 30hp. A chip package will only cost you $160 and you have the ability to change things for life. In your case, I think its the IAC tables need to be adjusted and the only way around that is to get into the computer.

These are my opinions, everyone can make their own choices, but I've tuned many fords over the years to see problems and symptoms. I've come to notice that most bolt-on parts or adjustments mask the true problem. One person's idea of "running great" vastly differs. If all you want to do is have it start, idle and drive decent, then go ahead and make small chances. If you want to have it run its best, get better than stock driveability, better fuel mileage , etc, then you need to dig a little deeper. With the mods done on Danielle's car, it should be putting an easy 330hp to the wheels. Why spend thousands on mods when you can't extract the power that they were designed for. Spending an extra $400 or less is a no brainer in my eyes to get optimum conditions.

Also, how many times have you paid someone else $100 to "tune-up" your car? And then you leave have still have issues later down the road. You'll go back again and pay another $100 and so on...

A one time investment goes a long way. To each his own...

i do agree, if i were to have a nice h/c/i motor making good power, i would swing the cash. i just can't justify spending that much on a stock motor. my father's having one burnt for his car at some point, but it's a built h/c/i 306 also. i'l picking up an intake for dirt cheap soon, actually, just swapping some other parts i have lying around for it, then i'll be in the market for some heads when cash allows. once that's all said and done, i'll be looking into a full computer tune.

where do i find 160 dollar packages for a custom burnt chip? dez charges 400 for a full tune and burning a custom chip.

Moates.net

F3 Ford Memory Adapter and Jaybird J3 Module Reader/Programmer

total cost is $135.

Dez charges a lot because he uses SCT hardware, which is expensive anyways. The moates chip in my opinion is a stable platform just as good, if not better than SCT. SCT tuning software is lacking and I use Binary Editor to do my tuning. There is a small-time guy that writes the software and it constantly gets updated, much more so than SCT. It also has more parameters.

Since you car is mostly stock, you can get away with messing around with other stuff, but again, I wouldn't recommend it...

so i can get it for that 135, but then i have to have someone tune it for me? i don't have a clue where to begin.

You can either start to learn yourself (its honestly not that complicated if you take it slow) or pay someone else to do it. I'm sure Dez or anyone else would be willing to do it for a small fee.

This is where tuning starts to go overboard. For example, I have a wideband, in addtion to a 9-channel data logger. I can measure and record everything I need to know and more, in order to do quick and accurate tuning. Most people don't want to drop the money on that hardware, which is fine, but I knew I would be making multiple trips to the dyno costing $100 each time. Now I can do it on the street(safely) at whichever times fits my schedule. Total hardware package was about $350. Not bad when I figure I can have it at any time, and even transfer it to a friends car if needed.

This thread has really taken away from the originally question. In Danielle's case, I would consider her car to be modified much more than a stock engine. There are little things she can do to help, but the underlying problem is still going to be there. Those heads, that cam, that intake, etc are never going to take well to a stock tune. In her case, she needs a tune. In your case, you can prob. get away without one. Does everyone need a tune? No. Can everyone benefit from a tune? Yes. My friend has a nearly identical set-up to hers, DSS 306, AFR heads, large cam, 73mm MAF, 70mm TB, RPM intake, 24lb injetors, headers, etc. After the mods, car was running 13.6. After a tune that I did he was running 12.4"s at 114. It easily has an 11 sec pass in it with traction permitting. Now that shows you something... Gas mileage went up considerablly, and driveability improved. He had an surging idle at start-up, stalling when coming to stoplights and poor midrange performance. All were taken care of simply by modifying a few parameters. He had the "matched" MAF and injectors and it didn't change a thing, the car still ran poorly. I just wanted to make everyone clear of the parameters involved with MAF's and to bust the myth of "this MAF is better than this one....". Do what you want to your car people, just offering my opinions with facts.

yea, see, i can't really afford that. i especially can't afford to take a chance at it myself and screw something up. i'll have to look into it in the future, but for now i think i'll just stick with my simple tunes when/if needed.

now, it's something i'll defintiely have my father looking into because his car is acting exactly as you described your buddy's car. although it drives very smoothly comfortable at low rpm, it makes poor low and midrange power because he has a blower cam in a n/a car. long story short, he had a crazy built 392 with a c4 and hated it for the street. knew a kid who wanted something crazier and traded him straight up for this motor and a built t-5 tranny. lost money, but got what he wanted in his car. the car doesn't come alive til between 4k and 4500 and the msd's got a 6k rpm rev limiter in it, but kicks in at 5800. with this computer tuner you're tlaking about, would it be able to change the factory rev limiter so he can spin it to 6800 or so with the right chip in the msd?

FastSC2, Why not a tweecer? On the forums I'm on that seems to be the only way people go.

On the same not as using previous cars as an example, we can use the last car I actually did a little bit of work to and quite a few people on this forum saw and knew the car. Extreme budget build....

Car had:

Engine was bone stock block with 145k on it.
World Industry iron heads (yep lil baby heads)
Ford F cam (got it dirt cheap not my first choice)
1.6 Crane Cam roller rockers
Cobra intake (yep baby intake)
Ford Racing 30 lb injectors (wanted to juice her or blow her eventually)
Mac LT headers
Flowmaster cat back
Mac O/R h pipe
underdrive pulleys
65mm Mac throttle body
Pro-M 77mm MAF
BBK fuel pressure regulator

Basic mods.....all of those parts were bought used except for the MAF. Like I said a very cheap build....didn't expect too much from the car.

Dyno'd her to just see what she'd be worth.....308 torque 306 hp
Daily driven car, would drive 20 miles to work and 20 miles back EVERY day and never had a drivability issue. Hell anyone that ever rode in that car with me could tell you it rode and felt stock until you romped it.

Seems to me like I did something right.

Tweecer is a fine way to go, since they offer the RT version which can do data logging as well. I chose to look elsewhere because of price. The base tweecer and a moates chip do the same thing, but the moates chip does it for MUCH less money. The hardware among brands is very similar, but its the software that makes one brand stand out from the other. SCT has a good inerface and have a lot of parameters unlocked that you can change. Tweecer is an example of a poor interface. It's not user friendly, has errors in its definitions, and doesn't have all the parameters unlocked. Binary editior is a good choice because it has much more functionality than tweecer and have all the ford parameters unlocked.

The Binary Editor software I use has 660 scalars, 99 functions and 27 tables for the A9L processor. You can change everything from idle speed, RPM limits, to even how long the check engine light stays on. Every single functions the EEC measures and controls, you have the ability to adjust it.

Tweecer doesn't have that much unlocked. A good compromise is to use the tweecer hardware with the BE software. But again, moates is the cheapest choice. Each hardware requires that you use the correct file extension when you save the file. Go ahead and download the Tweecer and binary editor and try them out for free.

Tweecer.com
EECanalyzer.net

is that the vert? i remember seeing that on craigslist and wanted to see if you were interested in trading for my car haha. seems like really good numbers for what was done.

my father's got trickflow tw's, a systemax 2 and an anderson b41 cam on a stock block, but full aftermarket rotating assembly 306. it only makes 307whp and 308wtq but is still climbing when it hits the limiter.

Yeah that was the vert, like I said budget build. Your dads car has a lot left in it man. The parts I just ripped off were all off the shelf crap that I paid pocket change for.

Those are good #'s for what you had done. Like I've said before, basic street combos dont NEED tunes. Everything to make them run correctly is available off the shelf etc.

I built a similar motor and it had no drivability issues at all either..

306SBF, 11:1 compression, ported heads, 65mm TB Pro-m MAF etc. oo and it had a zex kit on it and never had a issue even under spray.

that's what i figured, but his is also all box stock too. no porting or anything. i keep telling him to find a rev extender and spin ti to like 6800, where that cam is meant to make power, but you can't find them anywhere.

i should have gotten ahold of you and tried to trade you my car the the vert!

i highly dissagree. My car ran like absolute shit when it was untuned. I was under stock power had horrible gas mileage and no i would never buy some stupid programmer that would end up fuckin up my car.

If you want 2 put all that money into ur car and leave it untuned thats ur business but as for me the consequences of running something thats A. either waay to rich or B. way to lean is not very smart or healthy for the car.

I was reffering to a mustang maddie. LSx motors require tunes because the computeres control so much more now a days etc. same thig with newer mustangs.

The old computers were very basic then.

I will throw massive amounts of av-gas on the fire.



Remove.



Install.

Whats paul said!!! ^^^^

was about to answer but this next quote says it best





Hell I had a chip burned for the Cobra and it made a world of a difference, but that's a different animal.

well josh u need to be more specific in ur posts lol..i still dont see why not spend the cash and do it right the first time and gain full potential thats just my 2cents.

Because to solve her problems she shouldnt need a full tune. I 100% agree with getting a full tune to run its best but her combo shouldnt NEED one to run properly and thats what were diagnosing.

damn. this thread is almost as long as the cleavage thread now. lol

Everyone always complains our tech threads don't last, well this one is delivering!

glad I could help!


After reading everything that was posted and talking to my friends I have desided I will be taking my car to be tuned #1 is because I want my car to run to its full potential..it may be something I drive around alot on the street, but why just have it running good enough? The car has some extra stuff why not have it run like it should? And #2 why spend $200 or so on a new MAF when I can bring it to be tuned and they can just calibrate the one that is in there? This isnt to say that anyone is wrong or right. This isnt to say that I agree with one person more then another. Everyone had valid points. Im sure just fixing things to make my car run more normal would be fine. But I want it to run like it should, not just more normal. With all the good things that Ive heard about DEZ Im sure they can give me good advice and lead me in the right direction and not rip me off in the meantime.

Now I appreciate "everyone's" input. I think everyone is right here, just were giving there information and advice. Now everyone smile and stop getting so frustrated on who is right or wrong. because there is no right or wrong on people opinions.

Call pete at performance Dyno. He's up in NH.. might be closer to you and hes a better tuner... from what I'm told.

o ya btw. I like going to the track and I dont care how slow my car is. Its still a thrill to go down the strip. Im not into being the fasted car out there. But Id still like to go and run down. So why not have my car tuned to run its best and still drive it down the road?

2 of my friends just brought there mustangs up to a place in NH and had nothing but problemsIm not sure if its the same place, but one of my friends brought his car 4 times the 3rd time he went his car was running so bad he had to pull the chip from the computer just to get his car home, it was bucking so bad. I dont mind the drive, I dont mind the money I just wanted to bring to a well known place that knows there shit. And I was told to bring it to DEZ cuz they wont screw and so that sounds good to me.

It's not that the MAF will be "good enough" its more the fact that a combo like yours shouldnt NEED a tune to be driveable and perform good.

Ive seen many motors similar that have never seen a tuner and have gone plenty fast and never had any issues. Thats all I was trying to say.

just from experience, i would plan to upgrade the MAF as well. You can do a tune and use the stock one by redefining the transfer function, but you'll be very close to outflowing the stock meter.

I know you posted a pic of the electronics but you need to show a picture of the meter housing itself. It may not be a stock meter (such as C&L).

Using sampling tubes is an excellent way to maximize the airflow potential of the meter.

I doubt it was Pete. All the blackout guys swear by him so I dunno. Dez is a good tuner as well from what I hear.

Whether it needs a tune or not. Im sure it wont hurt just benefit. And Im sure that they will be able to tell me everything I need to do to make the car right or better. This is what these people do. They make cars go fast they make cars run right. I dont think I can go wrong and Im sure Ill get all the advice I will need to make it all good. I dont wanna do this and that and waste my time and money doing things to the car when I can just bring the car to a place and have them just run the car and tell me exactally what I need to do or what I can do to make whatever better.

Well FastSC and I finally agree on something regardless what you are doing as far as a tune, the MAF (if it is indeed stock) needs to be replaced. Stock Mustang MAF's are tiny.

^ now maybe you guys can play in the sand box without throwing sand in each others faces.

Alright well I just went out and got a tuner for my car lastnight as well. What do you guys think of this one?

http://www.kaboodle.com/hi/img/a/0/0/d/2/A...AAAAAAA0n2Q.jpg

I was leaning towards this one at first:

http://www.northerntool.com/images/product...s/441500_lg.jpg

I hope I made thr right choice...

It will actually come in handy once you have a license and your car is registered and insured.

Sorry you walked right into that one.

I dunno, I just hope I made the right choice and got the correct tuner. I dont want to spend the money twice.

lol no worries, luv ya too!

I kinda like this one better
bam

How did I know... I like the price of MS its just a PITA for me plus I have no use for it lol

I semi agree with that statement....

I'm not sure what the stock stangs have on there for a MAF (55mm??) but if she wants to run that one, that's fine. I was refering to the ability to meter the air before it hits the max MAF voltage flag. I have an 85mm unit on my car, but I could have gotten away with a 73mm and just changed the sampling tube to a larger size in order to increase the amount of measurable air.

A 73mm C&L can flow 700cfm which honestly is fine for 99% of the applications out there. I don't think the intake can flow more than that. I wish I had more time and I would help Danielle out with making a base tune using a moates chip. I raelly don't think the previous owner would have put 24lb injectors with a stock meter. I assume its aftermarket, but you'll have to verify it. The C&L looks very similar to the stocker to the untrained eye, as they use the same electronics