SD-Concept Engineering.

http://www.sd-concepts.com

Sick Tuning!!!

I just googled it Danielle. lol

lol i love hearing people say that MAF foxs dont need tuning when you mod them. i had a friend that stood by that whole heartedly until he built a nasty motor for his 88 GT and it went like 3 tenths quicker and 3 mph faster then it did stock, 13.6s compared to 13.9s. after he got frustrated and gave up my good friend jay tuned the car now it runs low 12s at over 110mph. IIRC after putting a wideband on it the car was retardly rich even with the correct MAF tube and injectors, i believe the AF was down to 10.5:1 at wot and the car couldnt idle to save its life, also got close to 10mpg. i wish he was on here, maybe ill get him to sign up and he will school us all on tuning.

he can try to school whoever he would like....I will stand by what I have stated on here till the day I die. These cars will not benefit from a chip nearly as well as newer ones would and even moreso since Danielle's car has no power adders, ie nitrous, turbo, supercharger, etc....

this car didnt either, it was an NA 306.

many factors could have led to that......bad MAF, etc....



I had an 88GT that I ran a Pro-M MAF on with 42 pound injectors, supercharged, that car never had an issue and dynoed over 500 to the wheels with a flat A/F ratio. Never needed any type of additional tuning.


I think the problem a lot of folks run into is that they go out and randomly order parts and then throw them together on the car. In the mix of orderng those parts they find a mass air meter in Summit, EBay ettc and just order. That's a mistake. Most reputable MAF manufacturers will sit on the phone with you and send you a meter that's programmed for the car you are putting it on. With that being said and done there should be no more need for additional tuning other than playing with your timing a little.

I am definitely going to have to agree with Nelly.

well guys either way I should have the correct parts for cars to start. If I get everything it should have and Im still having issues or unhappy with it's performance, then I will bring it to a dyno and have it further checked out. I dont mind starting from point A and working my way up to get the results Im looking for. it only makes sense and will save me aggrivation to make sure it's right before I go any further anyways. and I do appreciate everyones responses and help. thanx again.




o and Im not gonna pull anything apart today cuz I feel like complete ass, but Ill check the MAF out as soon as I feel a little better.

First off....Stangman....you are very wrong. Please don't try to give any "help" when you clearly don't understand the inner workings of the EEC system.

ANY car can and WILL benefit from tuning. This is due to the fact that Ford or any other manufacturer makes the tune super safe and varies parameters so that the car will perform in any climate, location or condition. Now there is no reason that a proper tune will not be safe.

As an example, on a A9L computer the open loop fuel table is based on load vs. ECT. The stock air fuel ratio is 12.6 at 70% load and up. You're not going to get an optimum running engine with that ratio. At WOT, a N/A engine should be running somewhere in the 12.8-13.1 range. Now just because it's programmed into the fuel curve doesn't mean that that's what you're getting for a ratio. This is due to the fact that the system is in open loop and any corrections being made now are due to KAMFR's (fuel trims, both long term and short term). In addition to that, timing is set very low and can be altered, not globally like advancing the distributor, but localized to provide the best spark condtions for each load situation, both WOT and closed loop. I've datalogged stock car and seen them run 11.0 or richer for the a/f ratio, mainly because the transfer function is wrong.

All this talk about "just getting the correct MAF..." gets me laughing everytime. You have to understand that aftermarket MAF's whether they use new electronics or switching sampling tubes all do the same thing, and that is altering the MAF transfer function in the WRONG way.

Again, if you "knew mustangs inside and out..." you would have realised this from the beginning. In case you don't, which is the case here, I'll explain it for you.

When C&L or Pro-M or whoever sell you a MAF that is "calibrated" for the injectors you are using, they are doing the same basic thing, and that is fooling the EEC to alter the load calculation. Why do they do this? Becuase it's easy and cheap and the addition of adding larger injectors messes up the fuel pulsewidth calculations.

In the EEC there are high and low injector slopes. If you have access to the file, as with a chip, you don't need an aftermarket MAF, you can run a stock one if you wish. You would simply enter your new injector sizes, taking into account a larger value for the low slope size.

Now most people don't know what they are doing when it comes to chips so the MAF company uses the sampling size of the tube or transfer function in order to alter the load.

Load is calculated by the following formula in ford EEC computers:

MAF must be in kg/hr which will then be converted into lb/min of air

#Convert to lbm
MAFlbm = MAF * (2.2046226/60)

#AirCharge per intake
AIRCHARG=(MAFlbm/# of CYLS)/(RPM/2)

#SAIRCHARG
SAIRCHARG=0.000044256*(CID/CYLS)

#Load Calculation
Load = (AIRCHARG/SAIRCHARG) * 100

The load is being altered so that the pulsewidth calculation is taken into account during fuel delivery.

Now the worst part about aftermarket MAF's is that they "optimize" the meter. Basically, they stick it on a car and toss it on the dyno. They keep playing with the sampling tube until they get the A/F ratio that they want. NOT the right way to do things. This is because the fuel tables are still in their stock form, and they are generating a false transfer function that doesn't correspond to actual airflow.

Now the correct way to do it is to use a meter, with whatever sampling tube is in there for the particular injectors, and get into the EEC and tell it the correct injector size, and the correct transfer function. In this situation, the only reason for using the "calibrated" tube, is so that the meter isn't maxed out at 5 volts. It'll have no effect on the transfer function, since you'll be altering it anyways.

Now you can turn off adaptive update, clear the long term fuel trims, force open loops and dial in your a/f using set values in the fuel tables and altering points on the MAF curve in order to match your commanded fuel values. Once you are 100% certain you have an accurate MAF curve, then you can alter your fuel values in the table to command what you want. The end result, you should get any and exactly the value you command in your table if the curve is correct.

If she has ANY modifications on that car, whether it be an airfilter, cam, injectors etc, your transfer function is already messed up. Sure you might be able to drive it around and not notice a difference, but that is because the EEC can adjust for values using it's fuel trims (using the adaptive update table) up to 20%. Some people get away with it, other don't, but by no means is this optimum. I ran a C&L meter in my car, with the matched injectors and guess what I was getting for a WOT ratio... 13.7, on a supercharged car. And you're telling me that it is "optimum" and "calibrated...??? I should have been getting a ratio of 11.8.

in the ford strategy there are long and short term fuel trims. Short term fuel trims adjust your ratio instantly during closed loop operation. Long term fuel trims are controled by a tabled called the adaptive update table. Basically this table controls when and when not adaptive learning is allowed as a function of load and engine rpm. Negative values in the table mean that no learning is allowed and positive values, learning is allowed after the number of samples specified in the cells. There are also other rules to this table that get a little more complicated, but that's the basics.

If the computer has made corrections during closed loop, it still applies those fuel multipliers during open loop as well. Not many people realise that. So if your bottom half of the MAF curve was slightly lean, say 10%, it'll still adjust your airflow values by 10% on the upper end of the curve as well during WOT or open loop.

If you force open loop and see if you're getting your commanded ratio at idle as well as part throttle until the load reaches the "load % vs RPM for open loop" flag. The reason you set all your fuel cells to something like 15.0, is so that there is no question what cells it's referencing regarding load. From there you can do the rest of the tuning during WOT operation( assuming you turn closed loop back on and reset your commanded fuel tables to the oppropriate values....)

Since tuners have very limited time on the dyno, they typically only tune for WOT operation, where the MAF voltage is roughly 2.5 volts to 4.5 volts depending on application. So the bottom half of the curve where all of the part throttle driving is done is still not adjusted. I'll willing to bet that it'll revert back to a rich condition once the adaptive learning takes over again.


Your comment about drilling out features of the throttle body, or cleaning the IAC are utterly useless and WRONG.

Her idle surging or decel problems are from the IAC flow functions or dashpot values. Again, these values are adjusted in the computer with tuning. An aftermarket cam is a sure bet that something needs to be altered in this area, but it has no effect on MAF or injectors.

I've been tuning ford vehicles, datalogging almost every value that has address tracing for 7 years now. I'd be happy to discuss any parameter within the system and explain exactly what it does. Every car can benefit from tuning, and the facts are shown right in the stock values of the EEC, which are not optimum.

I'm gonna hafta agree with nelson here. My buddys car was a shit ton better all around when he swapped a cobra MAF into the car. The stock MAF just wasnt doing it.

And the reason for that is the cobra MAF has a different transfer function....

It worked for his car because a 93 cobra came with 24lb injectors and a diffrent computer from the factory. We installed the Computer and it didnt do much but once we installed the computer and MAF it worked very well.

I never said the car wouldnt benefit from more tuning. I assume you're the guy with the T-bird from NEMS?

LMAO OK so you can come on here spewing whatever you'd like and preaching to the choir about how you know this that and the third. You keep referring to sampling tubes and what not. Sampling tubes are used on cheap C&L Mass Air meters (which do not swap out the factory electronics they keep the factory crap on) not on better companies meters that actually use electronics that are calibrated for whatever combo you may have. Take the time and contact a reputable mass air meter company and explain to them what combo the car has and what not an they will properly calibrate that meter for you.



There was your problem my friend
Sample tubes ARE garbage and I would not recmend anyone use a C&L meter on their car.

Please do your homework and make sure you read all posts in a thread before coming into a forum and making your first few posts trying to be a hero. OH and thanks for that negative rep, it means absolutely nothing. I guess you fail to realize I could give myself 1 million positive or negative rep and regardless people don't think any less or highly of me.

Thanks for recruiting this guy Joe, seems like a real nice guy!

LOL

First off, C&L meters and Pro-M meters do the same thing. They are altering the transfer function to compensate for larger injectors by changing load values. It doesn't matter if you're changing it via a sampling tube or doing it through the electronics...it's the SAME thing. Unless you get into the EEC and change the injector values, you are tricking the EEC.

Not trying to be "hero" I'm just stating the facts. And it's quite clear that I've done my homework on the situation..

Not to be a wise ass but what iswrong with tricking the computer like that? It works doesnt it?

It has worked on thousands of cars over the years. All I see is someone having had a bad experience with C&L, which is VERY common, and basing their opinion on all maf meter companies based on that experience.

Oh well to each their own.

Why has NO ONE recommended one of these.

http://www.tweecer.com/

Even a bone stock 5.0 benefits from one of these but most gawk at the $400 price tag.

It does, but it causes other issues down the road. Since the MAF table stays the same, IAC tables aren't altered and the MAF is giving a false values of actual airflow. This leads to drivability issues when you increase injector sizes, not because the injectors are too big, but because the IAC and lower end of the MAF can't compensate for it accordingly.

The method works, but it's a hack. And it's designed for 345893549345 people out there they have no clue what they are doing and just bolt on a meter and go. Its not optimum and the computer is usally compensating for it during closed loop.

As I said earlier, Pro-M, Granelli, C&L, they all do the exact same thing which is altering the MAF transfer function by the ratio of new injectors vs. old, and giving false airflow values. These values are then used in the load calculations, and these load calulations are using in the fuel pulse width calculations. Hense lower load values give lower pulse width if the injector values in the computer aren't changed.

Over 100k miles on the car and 100+ passes at the track and hes got no issues, I think my buddy will be in the clear lol

Sure she can benefit some from going to a tuner but its not NEEDED on her car with her mods to be driveable. I have seem more built cars not see tuners and run min for years.

NO you came in talking about how I am completely wrong and gave me bad rep and said I shouldn't speak on the topic. I have done more than my fair share of homework and have owned way more than my fair share of Mustangs. Danielle is not trying to build a race car, she isn't trying to take 2 seconds off of her quarter mile time. She is plainly trying o get her car to run right. She has a decent amount of mods on the car, nothing too wild. Why should she go out and spend 400-500 dollars on a tune when she can spend quite a bit less and get the desired effect? Had you also been reading this thread you would have noticed that she is seemingly running a stock mass air meter on her car. Now considering it's a 306, with heads, x cam, injectors and intake are you gonna tell me she doesn't NEED to swap out that meter before anything else?

Once again you came in like a hero running off about how I know nothing and this that and the third, how about doing your homework (ie reading the whole thread) before bashing anyone on here.

I have known Danielle and just about everyone here for a while, I have no issue admitting I may not know about something (ie I know nothing about diesel tuning nor would I ever claim to) BUT I won't allow someone to just go out and blow money on something I know isn't worth it, at least without letting them know all the facts first. And fact is right now her caar does need an aftermarket MAF.

Dez racing. nuff said.





lol

lol I will agree with that if you do decide to get a tune Mike knows his shit....I have no problem promoting good folks and Mike is one of the nicest people you could meet.


I still stand by my original argument, if it could be called that though

haha, looks someone's going to last real long calling out nelson like that on his own site with only 4 posts.

anyway, to stay on topic, my car does the same thing. start it up and it bounces between 200 or so up to around 1100. for the most part, it'll stop once it's been driven for a while and warmed up, but if i park it and let it run, the idle will stick high and then bounce around again after a bit. it's got stock injectors and i believe the stock MAF sensor, so i believe it's calibrated correctly. otherwise, all it's got is a small cam (TFS stage 1), CAI and full exhaust. any ideas nelson?

Basic trouble shooting for surging idle usually consists of checking the IAC, they are notorious for getting all carboned up. Like I suggested earlier to Danielle, pull it off and clean it up, it'll cost you less than 5 bucks and can't hurt.

If it still continues there are a few other basic tricks to try but that will solve it 9 times out of ten.



As for him calling me out, I can deal with someone stating their opinion but seriously to come out and basically say I don't know what I am talking about is pretty ridiculous. I enjoy a good discussion and I won't put anyone down for not agreeing with me, if anything we can end the discussion agreeing to disagree

the iac was actually cleaned out when it would do that and but stall if i weren't on the throttle. it was cleaned out and stopped the stalling, but it still surges. i also cleaned out the throttlebody because the small air gap for the idle was all blocked up. it's actually only started doing it again since the cam was swapped. i mean, it's not really effecting the driveability, so i'm not that worried about it, it just gets on my nerves sometimes. i'll check all that stuff again though, thanks nelson.

oh Nelson.... you dont kno what your talking bout

Have you checked the TPS at all? Make sure the voltage is correct and what not. It's really easy if you know how to use a multimeter.




me and you are gonna have a dance off soon!

i haven't checked the tps yet because i have no idea what to do or how to do it. i will be going to dez to have the car tunes and dyno'd because i'm picking up a new intake soon, so maybe i can have him look at it for me.

appreciate the help bud.

no problem dude, if you are ever in my neck of the woods I will be more than happy to hook the meter up to it to take a look. between the IAC and the TPS, I used to keep tons of those lying around in the garage because that's how often they used to go bad. Hell I may still have some laying around in a box.

oh alright awesome, thanks man. i live right in tiverton anyway, about 5 minutes from gary's street and trail.

with all due respect to all parties involved that car with an x cam will never drive perfectly by swapping the mass air. it may be acceptable driving characteristics to the owner but if you drive it that way for a while then have it tuned correctly you'll wonder why you never did it right in the first place.

Someone should sticky this thread as Jay(Fastsc92) just added a substantial amount of value to this post. Jay is knowledgeable beyond his years when it comes to tuning fords...

who knows. ill be the first to say i know shit about mustangs. but as for tuning definitely go to dez in seekonk (right across from seekonk speedway on rt 6) mikes a wicked nice guy. and from what i remember the prices are pretty reasonable.

and cant we all just get along!

I wasn't nor am looking to argue with anyone but all I am saying is Danielle's car isn't a race car, hell it's not even a 400hp street car. It CAN be tuned for the street with a MAF, fuel pressure regulator, timing, etc and it can have good street manners. This car does not need to be tuned with anything more than that and I have stated that before in this thread.

If this car was to be a track monster, pushing massive amounts of boost or nitrous, etc....then at that point additional tuning would be necessary.

If anyone wants to argue that point then they can till they are blue in the face......but once again the main point of this thread is that Danielle has a street car she just wants to run right.

so are you saying only race cars require custom tuning and that street cars should be left to run like ass? the car will probably cut substantial ET and pickup substantial mph when its running right, but that is just the bi product of an engine that is tuned to run optimal, i certainly wouldnt leave it running the way it is for the sake of not having it go any faster.
ive driven her car and it brought back memories of a car i grew up in that ran just like it.

what i'm getting out of this is that nelson is saying it doesn;t need some crazy custom tune like a custom burnt chip. all it needs is basic tuning like he's stated and it'll run fine.

don't get me wrong, i own one, but don't know shit about tuning them. what i do know is that everything nelson is saying is all i have dez do when he tunes my car, just quick air/fuel ratio and timing and it runs excellent.

Bringing this thread to a more civilized manner, let's discuss some facts here.

Unless you have aftermarket injectors that required higher fuel pressure, then there is no need to adjust fuel pressure. Ford injectors are rated for 39.5 psi static flow, and that's what they need to run at. Aftermarket injectors such as Lucas are rated at 43psi. This is the only time when you should adjust fuel pressure. Using fuel pressue to adjust for fuel needs is going to get you nowhere. Why? Because the EEC is going to trim it out anyways. Chances are, the reason why you would need fuel is during WOT. Adding more fuel by means of a FPR is going to adjust your fuel globally. This means that during part throttle, you're going to have access fuel. This will be seen by the o2 sensors and the adaptive control feature of the EEC are going to trim it out. Once you're in WOT, even though it's in closed loop, the computer still references the adaptive update table (long term trims) and trims down the injector pulsewidth. After some time, once the update table is full, you'll be right back to where you started. I've seen it before many times on the dyno, people are running lean, they increase their pressure, it works fine for one pass. Two passes later, they are right where they were before, with a lean condition. Don't believe me, then check out the inner stategy for KAMFR's and the adaptive update tables.

For those that are having idling issues, or stalling/puttering when you come to a stop, this is because the IAC tables are not correct. Yes the IAC should be clean and the TPS voltage is important, but they are not going to solve your problems. Idling issues have very little to do with TPS voltage. TPS can be anywhere from .9volts to 1.0 voltage. The only real reason for this is to provide information for WOT flags. Here it uses a WOT reference voltage, typically of 2.7 volts. You add the idle voltage with the breakout voltage and you'll get your triggered WOT voltage, which is used to switch between WOT tables and closed loop tables. That's the real only function other than using the throttle rate in deg/sec for the accel enrichment fuel table.

Adding a cam, no matter how large or small, has drastically altered your airflow characteristics into the engine. In this case, the sputtering and idling issues can almost always be an indication of a lean condition. To alter this, the IAC duty cycle needs to be altered. This function is telling the EEC how much air is flowing through the IAC during closed throttle blade conditions, all the way up to 2500 RPM's. By increasing the duty cycle, by providing correct airflow values from the transfer functions(this is where having a TRUE values is important), you'll be able to hold a steady idle. Drilling a hole in the throttle blade is not something you want to do. It'll add more air, but there are other things that get messed up when you do this. One, being a parameter which asks for the airflow leakage past the throttle blade itself. Obvisouly, drilling larger holes will have a drastic affect on this value.

That takes care of idling issues. If you're having issues with it stalling out when you decel, this is a factor of the dashot decement rate. Again, this function operates off of principals from the IAC tables and give the IAC commands for the step decrease in the IAC duty cycle. If the step is too large, you'll get sputtering or stalling at stopping.


Now, back to the controversal MAF transfer functions and which MAF is better than the other, etc...

I took the time to put together various MAF transfer functions, that are readilly available from either Pro-M and C&L to show people that both meters do the EXACT same thing. They use different methods to achieve the results, but the end result is the same. Take a look at the graphs below. This is showing a comparison of the stock 19lb transfer function, and then the transfer function of C&L and Pro-M. The Pink link is the stock transfer, blue is the C&L and Yellow is the Pro-m. Both aftermarket meters are for 24lb as an example. You can see that BOTH C&L and Pro-M follow the same path, in fact, they are nearly identical. If you do the math, they are shifted over from the stock curve by a function of .791, or old injectors/new injectors. Hense BOTH meters do the same thing, that is, shift the transfer function over by a ratio of injector size, effectively lowering true reported airflow values, in turn lowering the load calculation, thus reducing injector pulsewidth. It makes no difference what meter you use. Pro-M does it with their own electronics, and C&L does it with sampling tubes. End result, the same. The proof is right there.




Simple and accurate facts. You people can take this information how you wish. I'm not out to be a hero, but I can't stand to sit back and have people discuss things that are completely false.

My recommendation for Danielle is to varify what air meter you actually have. Then I would go ahead and get a new MAF meter. Not because it'll be "calibrated" but because with those heads and cam you'll be outflowing the stocker and a MAF is a good way to reduce the MAF voltage so you don't exceed the 4.75 volt threashold. Then, I would go out and get a Moates chip. You can get the complete tuning hardware for about $160. That includes the chip and burner. Now you'll have flexability to tune for whatever you wish. You can have two files on a flip switch, one tune for street, with lower timing, and another for the track.

She's not building a race car, by why would you tell someone to only fix the driveability issues when you can go ahead and fix the root of the problem and make a nasty car, to make good use of the heads, cam, intake etc that are installed on the car already? Just because someone had good luck doing it one way and Muscle Mustangs did is this way, doesn't mean that its the propper way to do things. Some have luck with it, other don't, but either way, you're not providing optimal conditions for the engine.

Like I said earlier I am not looking to argue with anyone here and Danielle is free to make whatever decision she would like. I will not be posting more in this thread and if Danielle would like my input she has my number and knows how to get a hold of me.

I am not saying that FastSC's information is incorrect I am saying it is not necessary for what Danielle needs.



Joe, Danielles car will NOT run like crap with a good street tune, just like PJ said, Dez has done the same things to his car that I have stated need to be done to Danielles and the car runs great without a computer tune.

its funny you say his car runs good, he was just complaining about it not idling right, as explained it doesnt matter what MAF or set of injectors you run, the car is never going to idle properly until you get into the computer. i guess some peoples idea of "running good" is alot different then mine, because slowing down to a stop sign or red light and having a car stall out or have to keep on the throttle to keep it running in traffic is not something i tolerate in any vehicle, also it is unsafe. as the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can not make him drink.

Dude are you seriously starting with me over this? PJ said his car recently started doing that, sounds like its a problem that occurred a while after Mike worked on the car, I am sure if PJ pulled out of Mikes garage and it was running like that he would pull it right back in.


Good Lord and then people say they don't want drama on here!

you can go back and read my post again if you'd like. if it sits and is started up cold it'll surge for a while until it warms up, but then it clears up until it sits for a while again. otherwise, the car runs excellent. it just started doing this when i started it up from sitting for 4 months.

edit: exactly as nelson said, it hasn't been touched by mike since last may i believe and ran excellent all year until it was parked. as previously stated, it just started doing this 2 weeks ago when it was fired up for the first time in 4 months.

THANK YOU!!!!! People only seem to read what they wanna read especially when all they wanna do is argue

i guess to you any time anybody posts their opinion they are "starting" with you. and maybe he should have pulled it back in the garage as he just posted again that it doesnt idle right.

CAN you read? The car drove perfectly FINE up until he let it sit for over 4 months! JEEZUS! He JUST reposted that.......

try again, bud.

maybe you need to read, that is your original post, just so happens you left out the rest of the information that you just posted.

Surging idle is a sure sign of IAC airflow in drive and neutral tables being wrong. Especially if it does it when cold. This is because the computer had to go out of its way once it reaches the HEGO time limit to correct the problem.

It should be obvious that when you stated

that the cam install had something to do with it, changing airflow characteristics and the IAC tables are wrong now.

You guys keep changing your story...honestly, I don't care, but pick one side or the other so people can accurately post information to help you.

are you kidding jay, were just crazy!!!!!

i understand that i left that out in the first post. had i known it would cause all this shit, i would have been more specific. the point is, it was running perfect before parked for 4 months, but now is surging at idle.



thank you for the info, but how exactly do i go about fixing it without spending upwards of 400 dollars on a computer tune/burnt chip. i feel that's a huge waste of money on my daily driven almost bone stock car.

and i haven't taken sides or changed stories. read my last post. i have no idea who either of you are, therefore i have no reason to cause any trouble or have any type of grudge. i've also said that i have no idea how to tune them or what i need to do to make sure all these things are correct. that's my reason for going to see dez. i was simply stating that every time i've gone to nelson in the past, his input has helped greatly.

if you'd like to go back a few posts and read, i also stated that i don't think nelson is calling any of you liars, he was simply saying that he doesn't feel the car needs a full computer tune to be comfortably driven on the street.